Conversation on FaceBook:
ATHEIST 1 So let's go back to my questions. “How do you discern truth in that sense from falsehood? What criteria do you use?” If you have no way of discerning truth from falsehood, then one could argue that nothing can be determinately true or false. If you somehow can discern truth from falsehood, but you have no criteria for distinguishing what is true from what is false, then it's possible that you hold false beliefs.
DEVI "The Nectar of Devotion"...The process you are asking about by which one can scientifically measure their spiritual progress is given there.
That way nothing is left to speculation. All the pitfalls are pointed out, too.
ATHEIST 1 But that's where the misunderstanding lies. I'm not asking how one can "scientifically measure one's spiritual progress." All I'm asking is how do you personally distinguish between what it true and what is false? When you personally hear something concerning spirituality, do you immediately accept it? do you question it? How do you personally determine whether it's true or not true?
DEVI If one's subjective experience is stated in there, then it is no longer only subjective right?
ATHEIST 1 This is not a philosophical question. This is a practical question. How do you distinguish between what is true and what is false? In your life, personally, when someone tells you something concerning spirituality, how do you know if it's true or not? Don't tell me what great thinkers or spiritual leaders say, or strip away subjectivity. How, in practice, do you distinguish between what is true and what is false?
DEVI I thought my experience was practical enough. What more do you want? Let's say you've never been to Antarctica. How do you know it exists?
ATHEIST 1 So let's go back to my questions. “How do you discern truth in that sense from falsehood? What criteria do you use?” If you have no way of discerning truth from falsehood, then one could argue that nothing can be determinately true or false. If you somehow can discern truth from falsehood, but you have no criteria for distinguishing what is true from what is false, then it's possible that you hold false beliefs.
DEVI "The Nectar of Devotion"...The process you are asking about by which one can scientifically measure their spiritual progress is given there.
That way nothing is left to speculation. All the pitfalls are pointed out, too.
ATHEIST 1 But that's where the misunderstanding lies. I'm not asking how one can "scientifically measure one's spiritual progress." All I'm asking is how do you personally distinguish between what it true and what is false? When you personally hear something concerning spirituality, do you immediately accept it? do you question it? How do you personally determine whether it's true or not true?
DEVI If one's subjective experience is stated in there, then it is no longer only subjective right?
ATHEIST 1 This is not a philosophical question. This is a practical question. How do you distinguish between what is true and what is false? In your life, personally, when someone tells you something concerning spirituality, how do you know if it's true or not? Don't tell me what great thinkers or spiritual leaders say, or strip away subjectivity. How, in practice, do you distinguish between what is true and what is false?
DEVI I thought my experience was practical enough. What more do you want? Let's say you've never been to Antarctica. How do you know it exists?
DEVI I meant you could experience it for yourself by meeting someone who has been there and finding out by their directions how to get there also... With a bona fide map you would see signs along the way knowing you are on the right track. If something proved false, the intelligent person would then rate the "experienced" person as giving wrong info. Similar to a false prophet, etc.
ATHEIST 1 But that's why my analogy works and yours doesn't. If spirituality refers to a thing, it's an immaterial thing. How do you know the people leading you there are telling you the truth? If I didn't know where Antarctica is on the planet, and someone said "Go East, you'll find Antarctica," then I may very well heed their advice and travel east.
DEVI Similarly, "The Nectar of Devotion" gives the bona fide map....it helps if statistically there are many many people of that experience. Having reached the actual destination. Yes?
And the directions and results must be the same for everyone. Maybe tailored individually, but no major changes allowed so not to disrupt the process. What is it that is called scientifically? Controls?
ATHEIST 1 That's fallacious--it's an appeal to numbers. But even if numbers mattered, even if they could serve as evidence of legitimate "experience," you have to assume that some people are lying or deceiving or mistaken...
DEVI The requirements are very rigid. That way pretenders are caught.
ATHEIST 1 I seriously want to know: what are the requirements? How are pretenders caught? How do you discern truth in that sense from falsehood? What criteria do you use? I think these are honest, reasonable questions.
DEVI The requirements are: No illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling and no intoxication.
This is real yoga, not the watered down stuff for sale. BTW, it costs nothing.
ATHEIST 2: Devi, Similar to Buddist monks, if we all pray all day then who provides and makes food. The same thing with yoga and meditation, we have children to look after, tummies to put food in if everyone could pray, do yoga and meditate, who takes care of t...
DEVI That is what is so nice about bhakti yoga. Using modern terms it is "hands on" yoga. You can practice any time, anywhere the principles. In the astanga eight fold system, bhakti is the topmost goal. So it is like an immersion process. Just like when you teach kids how to write by letting them write, and later when they have developed a taste for writing, they will want to learn the rules of grammar on for their own, naturally.
It is so practical, but it has been obscured a long time.
ATHEIST 2: Curiouser and curiouser, please if you know of a good web site I could go to with more info. I know I could just look it up but if you have a site that you would recommend I would appreciate it.....Guess what I'll be doing after I've had my meal, reading up.
DEVI The Perfection of Yoga
LATER NOTE: Atheist 1 also asked for more information, but in a private message.
